so if you're trying to handicap the negotiations, you'd have to concede that dana is on to something. >> really. so -- >> at least like the starting point. so basically the starting point for the republicans is what president obama probably would have viewed as a victory if they had the negotiation. >> yeah, he wanted another 400 supposed supposedly. how does simpson-bowles get to -- how does it raise revenue? what's the number that it raises? >> well, it depends because they have a bunch of different simpson-bowles plans. like in the bowles-simpson report, there are three different tax plans and then the thing that the republicans modeled after was something that bowles said in a hearing. >> it's interesting when you look at what these plans are laid out, yesterday tim geithner said the republicans have not told them how they plan on raising any of this money and that's the big problem they have with this deal. >> i don't think that's true. it's very, very easy to have some kind of bas broadening that raises that much money. the revenues are very easy to make line up especially over